if the box was a weapon meant to be deployed with the rest of The Machine, why was Newton carting it into the subway station?
I don't think this is a part of the machine the other universe needs. It's just meant to make the Fringe team run in circles for a bit, to clue them into the fact that the machine exists on this side so that they eventually dig it up and find the piece Alt!Liv needs to get to the other side (shown in Entrada, I believe). That's the mission.
The idea that her life has been more privileged or that she hasn't suffered loss is just wrong.
I don't think so. I think she definitely feels deeply for her people, and for the things that have happened to her own world. And I'm not saying she's a bad person, I'm saying that at this point in time, she lacks perspective. All of this things have happened to her world, yes, but not to *her*. Regardless of how altruistic your intentions or life are, things hit home a lot harder when you know what it is like to suffer something personally. Altliv has definitely seen a lot of terrible things, but she still has a fully functioning life, a lot of friends. It's easy for her to connect.
Once she gains that perspective, she becomes someone else. Someone who understands the damage she's done. I highly doubt that if she'd known her actions would start to destroy our universe in the same way as hers has been damaged, she would have done any of the things she did.
She is a member of the military, in a society that has become highly regimented by necessity. She doesn't know she's been lied to. She has no reason at this point to distrust Secretary Bishop.
But she does. The first thing Secretary Bishop tells them is that everything they though they were fighting were not natural events. That they were caused by other people. By another universe. And he told them that he had gotten to the position he is in by selling the public lies in the form of his ZFT book. When you have a problem of that size, having the people helping solve the problem know EVERYTHING they're dealing with should be top priority.
I understand that she is military, and that she is used to following the chain of command, but then again so is Olivia. Olivia was a marine. She has been FBI for a while. Both of those also rely heavily on a chain of command. And yet Olivia continuously find it in herself to question authority, and to go against it when she feels her orders are not right. Because she has the perspective Altliv lacks. Because she has been exposed to her superiors withholding information to cover other people's backs.
She's not there to destroy our universe, she's there to save hers.
Yes, she is, but at what cost? Once the machine is dug up and the drawings uncovered, do you think she was dumb enough to not know it would cost a lot of people their lives? Coincidentally, that's the same episode where Altliv starts doubting her mission. She indirectly asks Peter if he thinks what she is doing is the right thing, and his answer is that he feels it's right to find a way to save BOTH universes.
Olivia, after being abused by the other universe, after having had her life stollen by them, still has it in her to save a child of theirs, to try to minimize the damage as she escapes. That is ultimate selflessness. It is something Altliv learns and develops, once she witnesses the damage she's caused, but she doesn't have it yet, because she's in the dark. She lacks a lot of information.
She's very unhappy about killing Joe. But Newton made it clear that if she didn't do it, he would. He's just following his orders, his programming.
She is unhappy, but she does it anyway. She doesn't even try to find another way. I understand that she's in a very tough situation, but it also plays out as her asserting her authority over Newton. Killing the guy is a way for her to show Newton that she's capable, that she's not the weakling he seems to think she is. Doesn't that bring her down to the same level as the machine? Again, lack of perspective. The thing about Newton and Altliv is that Newton knows Altliv wants to prove herself. She's been given this huuuuge mission, that she thinks will potentially be instrumental in saving her people and her universe, so she is eager to fulfill it. Newton is using that to manipulate her into ignoring her own sense of morality.
Before she agrees to kill the deaf guy, he taunts her. He makes her verbally commit to doing it, knowing that she can't backtrack after that commitment, because Newton also has a direct line to her superiors.
The same verbal sparring, the whole "do you really have what it takes?" also happens in 3x04, right before she sleeps with Peter. Altliv is so determined to be right and to be the best that she unwittingly plays right into Newton's hands.
Bad Robot needed an excuse for her to make a move on Peter. Plus they don't want the audience to feel very kindly toward her, not yet anyway.
I fully agree with this. It's lazy and I still dislike it immensely. They could have avoided this in a lot of very interesting ways, but alas, it was not to be. This is why we have fic.
I see no sign that she needs Newton's approval at all. She's chewing him out, and letting him know who's in charge.
See above. She falls right into his plans. I agree that a man may try to assert authority in the same way, but I would still think he's being an idiot. Newton may be a machine, but he has a lot of experience and information. He has the same goals as her. He's been carrying out a life-long mission quite successfully. A wiser person would have kept such an asset on their side, instead of alienating him by way of mockery, the way Altliv continually does. We now that shapeshifters can form attachments, and that they have feelings, but I don't think Altliv consciously recognizes this, because all she can think of them is "machine = mean to serve me." Because Altliv is cocky, and because she wants to be in charge.
I do want to make it clear, in case it isn't, that I don't think any of this is wrong in a character, or in a person. In fact, all of these dilemmas and these differences in personality are what breathes life to altLiv. It's just not an example of good decision making, in my opinion. And it showcases a lot of the failings Altliv has because of lack of insight and information about our side, beyond factoids.
Actually, a man wouldn't need to assert his authority, would he?
Probably not. Newton would probably be written to bow down and lick the floor the dude has stepped on. But that's bad writing for you. I disagree with a lot of this arc precisely because it always felt like it was done for drama, instead of good entertainment or character development.
It would have been a very neat twist, if, a month in, Altliv had revealed that she was not their Olivia, and that she no longer felt her mission was right. It would have been neat if she had asked our fringe team for help in saving both sides. THAT would have been a HUGE twist. (Who couldn't see Altliv sleeping with Peter to keep her cover intact after the last few minutes of 3x01? Denial is one thing, but...)
And your last paragraph is basically what I just tried to say. TL;DR: I still think Altliv is all of those things I mentioned, for reasons explained in detail above, but I think it comes down to lack of perspective and information on her part. And my comments were never intended to say that I think Altliv sucks as a person, just that she makes a bunch of decisions that I don't agree with. To me, her biggest failing is her willingness to follow orders blindly, but then again, you're right. It may fall down to a question of nurture. It is how she was raised to be.
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Date: 2014-10-08 05:50 am (UTC)I don't think this is a part of the machine the other universe needs. It's just meant to make the Fringe team run in circles for a bit, to clue them into the fact that the machine exists on this side so that they eventually dig it up and find the piece Alt!Liv needs to get to the other side (shown in Entrada, I believe). That's the mission.
I don't think so. I think she definitely feels deeply for her people, and for the things that have happened to her own world. And I'm not saying she's a bad person, I'm saying that at this point in time, she lacks perspective. All of this things have happened to her world, yes, but not to *her*. Regardless of how altruistic your intentions or life are, things hit home a lot harder when you know what it is like to suffer something personally. Altliv has definitely seen a lot of terrible things, but she still has a fully functioning life, a lot of friends. It's easy for her to connect.
Once she gains that perspective, she becomes someone else. Someone who understands the damage she's done. I highly doubt that if she'd known her actions would start to destroy our universe in the same way as hers has been damaged, she would have done any of the things she did.
But she does. The first thing Secretary Bishop tells them is that everything they though they were fighting were not natural events. That they were caused by other people. By another universe. And he told them that he had gotten to the position he is in by selling the public lies in the form of his ZFT book. When you have a problem of that size, having the people helping solve the problem know EVERYTHING they're dealing with should be top priority.
I understand that she is military, and that she is used to following the chain of command, but then again so is Olivia. Olivia was a marine. She has been FBI for a while. Both of those also rely heavily on a chain of command. And yet Olivia continuously find it in herself to question authority, and to go against it when she feels her orders are not right. Because she has the perspective Altliv lacks. Because she has been exposed to her superiors withholding information to cover other people's backs.
Yes, she is, but at what cost? Once the machine is dug up and the drawings uncovered, do you think she was dumb enough to not know it would cost a lot of people their lives? Coincidentally, that's the same episode where Altliv starts doubting her mission. She indirectly asks Peter if he thinks what she is doing is the right thing, and his answer is that he feels it's right to find a way to save BOTH universes.
Olivia, after being abused by the other universe, after having had her life stollen by them, still has it in her to save a child of theirs, to try to minimize the damage as she escapes. That is ultimate selflessness. It is something Altliv learns and develops, once she witnesses the damage she's caused, but she doesn't have it yet, because she's in the dark. She lacks a lot of information.
She is unhappy, but she does it anyway. She doesn't even try to find another way. I understand that she's in a very tough situation, but it also plays out as her asserting her authority over Newton. Killing the guy is a way for her to show Newton that she's capable, that she's not the weakling he seems to think she is. Doesn't that bring her down to the same level as the machine? Again, lack of perspective. The thing about Newton and Altliv is that Newton knows Altliv wants to prove herself. She's been given this huuuuge mission, that she thinks will potentially be instrumental in saving her people and her universe, so she is eager to fulfill it. Newton is using that to manipulate her into ignoring her own sense of morality.
Before she agrees to kill the deaf guy, he taunts her. He makes her verbally commit to doing it, knowing that she can't backtrack after that commitment, because Newton also has a direct line to her superiors.
The same verbal sparring, the whole "do you really have what it takes?" also happens in 3x04, right before she sleeps with Peter. Altliv is so determined to be right and to be the best that she unwittingly plays right into Newton's hands.
I fully agree with this. It's lazy and I still dislike it immensely. They could have avoided this in a lot of very interesting ways, but alas, it was not to be. This is why we have fic.
See above. She falls right into his plans. I agree that a man may try to assert authority in the same way, but I would still think he's being an idiot. Newton may be a machine, but he has a lot of experience and information. He has the same goals as her. He's been carrying out a life-long mission quite successfully. A wiser person would have kept such an asset on their side, instead of alienating him by way of mockery, the way Altliv continually does. We now that shapeshifters can form attachments, and that they have feelings, but I don't think Altliv consciously recognizes this, because all she can think of them is "machine = mean to serve me." Because Altliv is cocky, and because she wants to be in charge.
I do want to make it clear, in case it isn't, that I don't think any of this is wrong in a character, or in a person. In fact, all of these dilemmas and these differences in personality are what breathes life to altLiv. It's just not an example of good decision making, in my opinion. And it showcases a lot of the failings Altliv has because of lack of insight and information about our side, beyond factoids.
Probably not. Newton would probably be written to bow down and lick the floor the dude has stepped on. But that's bad writing for you. I disagree with a lot of this arc precisely because it always felt like it was done for drama, instead of good entertainment or character development.
It would have been a very neat twist, if, a month in, Altliv had revealed that she was not their Olivia, and that she no longer felt her mission was right. It would have been neat if she had asked our fringe team for help in saving both sides. THAT would have been a HUGE twist. (Who couldn't see Altliv sleeping with Peter to keep her cover intact after the last few minutes of 3x01? Denial is one thing, but...)
And your last paragraph is basically what I just tried to say. TL;DR: I still think Altliv is all of those things I mentioned, for reasons explained in detail above, but I think it comes down to lack of perspective and information on her part. And my comments were never intended to say that I think Altliv sucks as a person, just that she makes a bunch of decisions that I don't agree with. To me, her biggest failing is her willingness to follow orders blindly, but then again, you're right. It may fall down to a question of nurture. It is how she was raised to be.